Gillian Lander's Homepages

dART - The Internet Art Database

A serious online art gallery, family history, church music, choirs, organ music, art, stray opinions, wild places, books, ideas, wit and stupidity.....  a miscellany of things I love or seem to get involved in.

Updated

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MIGRATION UNDERWAY. This is a dotcom at last. In due course various pages should turn up here. Most importantly, there will be a separate section for the Heritage of Christian Music course materials.

See below - re Aggressive Fibromatosis aka Desmoid Tumour & surgery Miracle of modern surgery

Dunstable research - 15th century music and related issues

Intercessions

Kittens this age are adorable !

To the Powerful Women in my Life
Keep the Faith....!
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says…
'
Oh Shit…She's Awake !'

THE ADVENTURES OF A NEW BLUE MERC

For sale. Very low mileage. Only runs in low gear, forward and reverse - the latter at speed. WOF and Rego OK. Wot offers?

THE DESMOID TUMOUR RESEARCH FOUNDATION NEEDS SUPPORT>>> HERE ________________________________

These are extremely rare tumours that are outside the scope of usual cancer research.

INTERCESSIONS

Bosco Peters has an online Intercessions link. HERE

God help us. The alleged cream of the new generation of clergy it seems can't cope with the sick and needy. Dont want to know close up - engage with their flock. The Privacy Act and a whole load of BS...

A wonderful senior woman priest has just sent me a St Peregrine card and medal. Who on earth is he? Turns out he's the patron saint of cancer sufferers. He was a 12th century monk who, for penance never sat down for 30 years. Slept on his feet. Not surprisingly, he fell over often and hurt himself (he's bleeding at the knee on my card) and so eventually formed a tumour on his leg (probably Aggressive Fibromatosis/Desmoid Tumour - that is often a result of falls / trauma)

The night before his leg was to be chopped off (the only treatment for AF until recently) he spent in chapel (well you would ) where Our Lord hopped off his crucifix and touched his leg. And lo, the tumour was gone next morning. Peregrine was canonised in the 17th century.

 

NOW I HAVE JUST BEEN TALKING to another priest who anointed a nun years ago in his curacy years in UK, the night before she was to have surgery, and her tumour went too... They had to run tests again - and oooh, loo-ok, not there.. Silly me, should have taken his offer of Holy Unction before my surgery in 2005! No, no, you have other people to attend. Its too far to come.,

Revd Wendy Cranston, one of the first women priested, has knitted me a teal blue and burgundy prayer shawl - every stitch a prayer. That is loving care. I look like a rabbi in it ! I will attend her Eucharists of a Wednesday at St Albans and be honoured to be there.

So there ARE things like "blocked" priests. Three have come to light in a matter of days.

One is married to a woman priest who fell foul of her parish (too bossy) and is no longer in ministry, so he has no future. His application to a certain parish was simply ignored at a high level and never reached the nominators.

Another is a senior priest and scholar in the field of Ethics, and has opinions now on the Windsor documents that are being stiffled. I raise this issue here because his website hosted in NZ is being "flamed" - ie crashed by counter opinions with web knowhow. All this bespeaks paranoid bishops - who have forgotten pastoral care, and no doubt have Our Lord howling in desperation.

It is tragic that people of questionable profession are in senior church posts.

+Victoria Christchurch is a True Gift. Please God we get more like her.

I HAVE A PUZZLE

With the prospect of editing some early music in view I am doing a little preliminary research. It has taken me to the Rolls Series, "Rerum Britanicarum Medii Aevi Scriptores" now courtesy of Princeton University who have put these early texts online. This might be an important passage for me in due course. It may tell us more about the music there that can be useful to my editing. So, if perchance you have a worthwhile contribution I would be glad to hear from you! There are gaps quite insoluble. I have not yet finished my attempt at translation. And I am not an expert Latinist !

Below is the extract from the "Rolls Series" available now from the Public Records Office in London - material from the Rolls of the Middle Ages. 

It is reputedly by Thomas of Elmham, (or his companion) a monk of St Augustine's monastery, and chaplain to Henry V at Agincourt. Or it was intended for his history of the St Augustine Monastery at Canterbury which he completed only as far as 800, hence the rough Latin draft by someone of the contemporary account - possibly written from recollections about 1435.

It accounts for the music used in Canterbury Cathedral as the monastic chapel for St Augustine's Monastery nearby, A medieval serivice sheet. In 1416, after Agincourt, the Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund met for some time with Henry V at Canterbury to sign the Treaty of Canterbury, forming an alliance between the two against France.

________________________________________

At issue, the three popes to be deposed, (at the Council of Constance 1414-18 ) and lands of France, and matters of religion. Just what were Henry's views? And also Chichelle's?

The monk-writer has musical interest and services may have showcased works by Dunstable as the flower of English talent of the day. Names of works correspond to his. The writer may even have been a monk singing "in choir".

Easter must have been late that year as Ascension, Pentecost, Trinity and St John the Baptist are all within weeks of this conference in mid-summer. Funny, there is no reference to Becket, as Henry V made many pilgrimages to Canterbury. But there is mention of St Edward and St George - Chichele had just made St George patron saint of England in 1415 in lieu of St Edward the Confessor. And they fought and won in the Somme (aka Agincourt) under his cross of red banner.

Whatever, a good time was had of the visit to England - a fine summer in the south, time at Windsor (? hunting deer) and an opinion formed of fine musicianship and churchmanship in England, as the Emperor and entourage departed for Calais via Dover.

The original probably looks like the text (two) below, by Henry VI. Translation has defied many over six centuries, and for sure I'm no better Latinist. What are the problems? 

1. The writer is being deliberately obscure for some reason. Parts of words fit across several lines. (Perhaps there is a monkish idea of virtue in anonymity but in admiring Dunstable he just had to name him crypticly.)

NO ! - LIGHT has dawned on this one. He is deliberately writing using musical compositional tools like hocketing, talea, or cantus firmus. Of course, he had no vocabulary as we do today for the nascent polyphonic style. No way of describing voice leading and part writing, so he's doing it with words. Clever !

2. He uses abbreviations and contractions.


3. Letter formation is confusing and inaccurate. Hence my trialling it in Old English script. Note several letters can still be mis-read in this exact modern font. s/a/e, n/u, i/r, g/s.... and no doubt the years have faded some letters in the original.


4. There is monastic terminology not generally known by non-church musicians, relating to the calendar, Liber Usualis and Breviary.


5. Sometimes he just cant spell! 


6. He seems to be jotting notes, rather than writing full sentences.


7. Sometimes the copyist at the Rolls can't figure out letters, so there are compounded errors.

I get the feeling that this is more a "monastery" event than cathedral. A high point in their history. St Augustine's monastery is now in ruins. Henry V and Sigismund would have been guests of Henry Chichele, the Archbishop of Canterbury, at his palace in Palace St. The other nobles and advisers would have been guests at the monastery. And the servants would have stayed at the Eastridge Hospital with the pilgrims and slept on the hay with the fleas...

The font I am using below is called Barlols-Random, and is a Gothic font from urbanfont.com I hope parallels the hand written original. But it may not show in your browser. It may default to Times Roman.

Prsevia cum Psalmis staut Responsoria versu,
Gloria post toto sunt repetenda choro. •
Dominie* ferial. feriaS. feria4. feriaJ.
tem,u late til- min, date nomen Domini neJiclta
Can Jubi Con Lau Be
ferla 6.
ate Dominum de calls (m,l cor mcum ix Dominn. .
Laud Exul in ordine psalle.
fnuo Trioitati dietui Deul ia Fatrl Tlrtns bi lani Sum Bene Quis Glor Honor Ti •\
eam,u Fatrem. (Patrem)
I Benedi dabis his.
Pose missam celebre memoratur Trinus et Unus ;
Cum versu, " Tibi laus," 0. repetenda patet.
Versiculo dat Collectam celebrando sacerdos ;
Ascendit Christus, Sumpta Maria tenet.
Hie vir despiciens memor est tibi, Sancte Georgi !
His sunt versiculi cum prece more pan'. (pari)
Post Complementum, divinorum memores sex
Hi sunt sollennes, quos numerare potes. {
nitau ritus Sanctos Edwardnt Johannes Baptiata
Tri Spi Rex Pneco
3ancttu Georsia! Saacta Maria
Miles Regina beata {
bera no* nl Sanete Spirittu Itex Dentil ste. lsr natoa
Li Ve Confer ave, jungis In ]
r-tt vere martyr ad placitum chorl. .
Hie Placet hsec.
CAPITULUM XVIII. — DE KEGRESSU IMPERATORIS AD
CALESIAM PER DOVORIAM; ET DE CEDULIS IN PLA-
TEIS ET VICIS PER SUOS DIMISSIS, AD LAUDEM
ANGLORUM.
Post nova scripta data, post laudes inde relatas,
Dovoriam petiit Induperator iter.
Sparserunt equites per vicos atque plateas
Hsec laudum scripta, mente notanda piis. — "
Vale et gaude, glorioso cum triumpho, O tu felix
Anglia, et benedicta, "
Quia, quasi angelica natura, gloriosa laude Jesum
adorans, es jure dicta. "
Hanc tibi do laudem quam recto jure mereris."

(u=n - stant) Proses with psalms, versicles & responses 'as set', the Gloria after all of them sung chorally. The Lords Day(Sunday), and four days Ferial days (Psalm modes i-viii not melismatic "ferial" not festal use) (J=d) Contionem=contilumin
The songs of the assembly/conference rejoice, praise and bless the name of the Lord.

On the 6th ferial day..

Laudate Dominum (Ps 117) the clever/elaborate way (ie melismatic), my favourite (cor mecum) (Amazing to know the chant he is talking about. It is lovely music. Not just a Psalm tone.)

Afterwards a Mass commemorating the Three in One, with verses "Tibi Laus" ... repeated and extended. Versicles given the Collect by the celebrating priest.

Ascendit Christus, Assunpta Maria in tenor- this monk knows technicalities of music (Motets by Dunstable.)

At this time (here/now) men look upon and remember you. St George. (Archbishop had just made him patron saint of England in time for Agincourt 1415) Here are versicles and prayers composed for his death.

Afterwards Compline, six remembrances of the divine, here ingenious, here rhythmically and /melodically effective (and he demonstrates the hocketing and sharing of a melodic line)

Libera Nos = Chant for Trinity Veni sancte Spritus - major work by Dunstable using text by Stephen Langton  Cryptic - Was woven / plaited by Dunstable (Dsntil)


Click the Icon to see info about the Heritage of Christian Music Project.

Domine Iesu Christ, qui me creasti, redemisti, et praeordinasti ad hoc quod sum: tu scis quid de me facere vis: fac de me secundum voluntatem tuam, cum misericordia. Amen., it's nearly impossible to eradicate the lovely strains of Henry George Ley, who set the text to music. You can hear a portion of it here (opens in Windows Media Player or Apple Quicktime) Written in Latin by King Henry VI, the English translation** is this:

Lord Jesus Christ, who hast created me, redeemed me, and brought me hither to that which I am: Thou knowest what Thou wouldst do with me: Do with me according to Thy will, with mercy.

This is not a case of predestination as argued on AnglicanOnline, its a case of trust in and total acceptance of God, Self and the World.. Its OK to pass on...

AMBROSE on holiday at Pahi photographed by Aunty Maggie.. I think this shows his blind eye clearly. Its detached retina is not reflecting light. Await puppy photos being scanned. And Ambrose travels to Wellington in September, and plase God, it'll cure the car-sickness.

 

 

THE MIRACLE OF MODERN SURGERY- see below..
Bionic Woman back on organ....

Since I first posted this comment, I have discovered a rash of internet searches from all over the world (USA, Europe, Third World, Asia..) in, bringing up the issue of tendon transfers and arm/hand anatomy. Obviously either patients like me seeking solace, or medical students. Yes, I note a rush of interest at the beginning of the northern academic year. Anatomy 101 of the upper extremities. So I am tightening up the history, as ever a teacher !  And of late I have discovered that I am a "known patient" at MCS - a difficult case they all seem to have an interest in !!

Below are the three tendon transfers made on my paw in November 2006, after the removal of neural fibroma aka Aggressive Fibromatosis about the posterior interosseus nerve, in 2005 along with radial nerve and supinator muscle, all of which took about 10-15 years to reach a point of diagnosis. I will never forget the grateful feeling of relief post-op (possibly silly on morphine) that the exhausting pressure of the tumour (2cm x 3cm x 2cm) on the radial nerve was over. This, even when the Superficial Sensory Radial Nerve was giving me hell that morphine could not touch. Months of physio followed, preparing muscle for new function before the tendon transfers about a year later.

I think the first tendon transfer pic should show FCU linked to EDC.and the second pic should go to FDS to EPL not the Abductor - but its the general idea. There are all sorts of possibilities   I have lived a whole life without one Palmaris Longus and this was just discovered by the surgeon who had planned to use it. OK, plan B ...  A pity that I went to theatre longing to be put to sleep after a disturbed night on the ward. I had the offer of watching all this under local anaesthetic. But it would have required keeping totally still for three hours as Tim worked under a microscope weaving all together. Eight weeks of staged physio followed after emerging from the cricket bat cast. Patience, patience.....And yet more physio... still two years on.

However, it was not a blinding success due in part to the heavy radiation pre-op on the tumour in the arm. Too much scar tissue. The wrist is still dropped after PT to ECRB. This is about to be re-worked tenolysis as the tendons are apparently caught in scar tissue and will not slide as they ought. Even electrical stimulation by the physio could not budge them. And the thumb will not extend as it ought though it is slowly gaining.. That will be dealt to last of all. Debatable. Great improvements have been made in articulation of the arm with the recent removal of the radial head, jammed with defomity of ligaments, and an old healed crack. 15 degrees of pronation and supination have now become 65 degrees or so out of possible 90. Next step is tenolysis - depending upon a round table consultation with other consultants..

Friday 6 June 09 . (AHA - we have had the consultation complete with Powerpoint Presentation. Consensus is that the tendon transfer has come apart in the arm. Pronator Teres is floating unattached under another muscle and the tendon from ECRB is lost somewhere. MRI #3 coming up, and exploratory surgey...)

Monday 8 Sept 09. TODAY THE RESULTS OF MRI #3 - Another Aggressive Fibromatosis tumour a bit further/half way down the radius, right against the bone, compromising the tendon transfer ECRB-PT. Must be 10cm long. No surgery allowed as it will make things worse. No more radiation - 50gy maxed out. See Gary French in November, and will probably be faced with Gleevec chemo. ugh.. But I see there are herbal possibilities - eg " Pau d'arco" whatever that is. WATCH THIS SPACE. I have registered now as a patient on www.dtrf.org (Desmoid Tumour Research Foundation) and joined a couple of support groups.. These are the worst tumours - lawless and aggressive and very rare (3: 1,000,000pa) and little understood. I wonder if Gary has kept my block?

Tuesday 18 November 09 - Meet Gary at Manukau Super Clinic - > Oncologogy -> Chemo BUT - I am already on Pau d'arco tabs, (reputed to reduce tumours) and have saliva on the way to Canterbury for hormone testing, as I want to be well prepared for this meeting. Chemo is likely one year on Gleevec..... Below are articles and sites or relevance so far. TBD and CancerCompass are support groups with all sorts of shared info. Tues 18 Nov... GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! .... I don't have to have chemo. The mass is hard scar tissue indistinguishable from tumour by MRI .... Case of too many cooks/surgeons. Carry on with Pau d'acro and hormone. DTRF can possibly have some tissue for research as the tumour is kept at Middlemore. Another check next year ! Disease is dormant as a result of heavy radiation and surgery. I'VE BEATEN THE ODDS SO FAR !

http://www.tbd.com/group/1030/discussion/309499/show
http://www.cancercompass.com/message-board/message/single,2686,13.htm
http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/34/8/472
http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/2/181
http://www.paudarco.org/

_______________________________________________________________________

Since loading the pipe organ progress, yes I am playing Bach again, including some diploma music, over two years after the first surgery, but plenty of repertoire is lost forever simply because of the configuration of the left hand part - even basic hymn tunes. I got back on the organ six months after transfers. Luckily the left hand is only one of four limbs used by organists. Each time I play there are minute improvements, and I look forward to playing one day soon without the dropped wrist. (Sorry that aint gonna happen now!) What I am delightfully discovering is new music that I now have to learn. Even Bach has undiscovered gems - his dark, brooding chorale prelude on the German Our Father is a recent discovery. And a salutory lesson indeed... some works have IMPROVED with the demands of physical effort, concentration, care and new insight. I can cope with about an hour of playing now, and soon will explore Theodore Dubois' Sortie Toccata. ANY Toccatas after tendon transfers are just miracles.... But as a member of our congregation said - it's ALL a miracle. I remain on the intercession list. (ER.... SEE ABOVE....)

So, if you are reading this as a patient anxious about the future, do take heart. Yes, I have been lucky and have had some wonderful surgeons, leaders in their fields who may not be matched in some of the places visiting this site. But tendon transfers have been done for over fifty years now. And I know I am demanding more finesse of my paw than most patients. You will find new meaning in "patience".

And now named credits are due with gratitude: Dr Michael Lockwood, my GP (now departed for an IRISH VILLAGE to be Doc Martin as it were), Gary French FRACS (orthopaedic oncology), Tim Tasman-Jones FRACS (hand surgeon and painter ), Alieke van Middelaar (Head of Physio) and Margaret Chiaroni NZRN (Parish Nurse), Graeme Stevens (radiologist) and latterly Wolfgang Heiss-Dunlop MD FRACS (Hand surgeon)

I list here some of the JS Bach works that I can now resume playing: The Great Prelude & Fugue in C min (BWV 546 - a big work with effort), about half of Orgelbuchlein, Five part Fantasia in C minor, selected movements of Sei Gregrusset, and more to be listed. Of course there are other composers... Reger.. perhaps Franck..Pachelbel, Buxtehude - I have played some of theirs too.

Sarah in Cambridge is awaiting  an MP3 of me back on Bach at the organ. ! Will try ! It will look silly for sure but should sound OK in time if I can differentiate 4-5 fingers. And the Parish Nurse deserves a fundraiser recital. I am getting used to life without debilitating Radial Tunnel Syndrome - aka misdiagnosed Tennis Elbow for fifteen years.

Methinks Benedict played the great "organisation" game - keep yer head down, mouth shut, do well what yer told, and yer time will come - probably learnt as Hilter Youth the way to stay safe. He let slip a phrase when assuming the papacy that hinted at an insightful gleam in his eye, nowhere near what was expected. He's not going to be a mere caretaker.

BENEDICT XVI is in grave danger already of becoming a great pope in the line of Gregory and Marcellus. (*)

I remember noting how easily John Paul II's funeral Mass was done in Latin - lousy musically, but otherwise a very traditional Mass, unfamiliar now to more than a whole generation. And I wondered how many would understand what was going on. All the old cardinals just just went into auto-pilot. It was a wonderful service, and I particularly noted at the end the dramatic power of calling upon all the company of individually named saints as they handed John Paul over to them. Liturgical reforms (read shake-up after the slackness following Vatican II) are on the horizon among catholics and already the ructions have begun. Restoring the Latin Mass alongside the vernacular, and relearning liturgics is advocated from on high.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2006/10/one-holy-apostolic-rite.html #

Benedict is highly erudite, a capable musician, theologian, and also German. He knows full well from his youth what fine liturgical music can achieve spiritually. He has been busy in recent years on the issue. I have links here to sites quoting him as Cardinal Ratzinger.

* HOWEVER - Benedict must sort out his Vatican rules on clergy child abuse ASAP or he will be remembered otherwise.




AMAZING WHAT BEING ONE-HANDED DOES !

I am exploring Kandinsky, (Ravine above) an early 20th century musician/painter. In the early 80s when I first went back to painting I tried Expressionism and it was not me then. I had to explore landscape.

Now I am being pushed and stressed ... though I am being very coo...ool about my disability ( temporary I pray-. robbed of organ playing - but not conducting)

I have been on the edge of something new for a while,dissatisfied by what I have done. A couple of years back I tried making images of Taveners music - small scale music works that were visualisations of analysis of the music. Not a success.

I have now decided that there is NO connection between Fine Art and Classic or Fine Music despite the apparent parallels in elements which most seem to misconstrue anyway, and some philosophical / aesthetic parallels in periods of history. (Michael Smither please note). Kandinsky, Scriabin, Schoenberg and friends all thought there was a connection, and got into some very wacky ideas which went nowhere, like "colour keyboards". NO. They are separate arts. We know a bit more about physics nowadays. The colour spectrum bears no relation to Pitch and Melody. It is closer to timbre which can be visualised electronically with the oscilloscope. (But what a bald sight on screen - nothing aesthetic).

Fine Art exists within SPACE, depending upon the eye, and Classic Music within evanescent TIME, and depends upon the ear - but also Memory. I agree with Kandinsky that music is the higher art, closer to the evanescent mind and presence of the Creator and the mathematical harmony of the Universe and whatever abstruse logic holds it all together.

All that these arts have in common is the HUMAN SOUL within the artist and the recipient. So the artist is led back to abstraction, to the mind-place where Alpha rhythms take over - the same place of religious Contemplation, where you also visit when classical music-making crosses over from cerebral intention to interior communication. That rare place is the common ground.

I am not sure where all this will lead, but for the moment I take Kandinsky as a starting point. I just hope I do not end up with stark works like his later ones !

FINE ART CLASSIC MUSIC
Pallette (spectrum) Timbre
Intensity

Dynamics

Perspective/dimension Tonality/modality
Texture Texture - harm / cpt
Line Melody(subdivides)
"  ....pitch and range
" .....duration of notes
Pattern / design Form (binary etc)
Rhythm Rhythm
Stasis / speed Tempo
Composition Unification devices
Medium Enesmble medium

I suspect that whatever one creates in this time-space it cannot be fully original and will just be yet another Variation upon a Theme... We are humanly incapable of prime Creation - even such as JSB !

It means getting in touch with the interior artist long clobbered by necessity, common sense and other peoples opinions. Claiming freedom for oneself. A painful process.

Brainwave - Mr Drawbridge's scribble patterns! He was my first art teacher at 6-7 years ! Bingo!

Watch this space!

Above - My boy Peter Lander (1994-2005) aka Maiana Willie Winkie in his last photo-shoot.   Above - Peter as a young dog c.1997 His ashes have been interred outside the organ door - the organist's dog...

IN ADDITION TO COLIN FRY...

I am convinced now that we live on in another dimension where Thought and Time are the paramount medium. It makes the Christian (esp) view make huge sense. Various other-worldly experiences I have had support his.

Since we do live on, death does not rid the world of anyone, and issues still remain to be faced. Ultimate perfect justice will be done face to face and Bad Karma worked through. So from a societal view, its worth living a worthy life and getting things sorted as you go!  

See this fascinating website collating all the 19th-20th centuries research about the AfterLife, presented as a court case with credentials  of experts and full examination of evidence.

Victor  Zammit is a retired Australian lawyer.

Victor's website is http://www.victorzammit.com/  His Chapter 29 in the latest edition is especially good reading. Online go to The Book Link and scroll to chapter 29.

Then there is Michael's book "The Stephen Experience" which I'll comment upon later.

21 THESES

Drawn from Bob Funk's recent book "Honest to Jesus" - publ 1996 Harper (Polebridge) Funk is chair of the Jesus Seminar, the group of international academics pooling modern Biblical scholarship to date - material that ought to have been shared from the pulpit ages ago. He has a gloss on each one. I have them reworded into imperatives.

1. Liberate Jesus
2. Revamp our understanding of the origin of Christianity
3. Re-learn the Chrisian life
4. Allow that a secular sage may be more relevant to spiritual dimensions of society
5. Remove our faith from foundation on the faith of Peter and Paul
6. Make the Godhead the object of our faith - Jesus himself is not the proper object of faith - He points to God.
7. .Interpret Jesus in the same registers he employed.
8. Give Jesus a demotion to our brother (and so acknowledge our immanent God within)
9. Cast Jesus in a new drama, in a story with a different plot.
10. Reconceive the vocation of Jesus as the Christ
11. Keep an open table like Jesus
.
12. Make forgiveness reciprocal.
13. Condemn the public practice of piety

14. Have an unbrokered relationship with God - as Jesus advocated
15. Remove privilege for "Christianity"
16. Accept that all rewards and punishments are intrinsic
17. Abandon the doctrine of blood Atonement - (yep indeed)
18. Interpret the reports of resurrection as glimpses only.
19. Redeem sex, and allow a biological parenting of Jesus.
20. Exorcise apocalyptic elements in Christianity.
21. Declare the New Testament a highly uneven and biased account of early attempts to invent Christianity.

What would Martin Luther make of these?
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